My Weekly Bill Moyers Fix

Bill Moyers discusses the the meaning of the Geneva Conventions with Judge Richard Goldstone.

BILL MOYERS: But we did bomb the Bundestag in Germany, during World War II. The Allies did.

RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Well, I think the standards of World War II are a little outdated. I think the, we’ve had since then, the 1949 Geneva Conventions, the 1977 additional optional protocols to the Geneva Conventions, so the law has moved considerably. And I don’t believe one can judge a war in 2008 and 2009 by the standards of the 1940s.

BILL MOYERS: But what about, for example, as you talk, you make me think of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where the United States deliberated incinerated two cities, with atomic bombs, knowing that tens of thousands of civilians, including women and children, would perish-

RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Well, times have changed, the law has changed. And I have little doubt that if a similar situation arose today, it’s highly unlikely that there would be the use of nuclear power in respect of cities and having a civilian toll that one had in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

BILL MOYERS: What’s the heart of the Geneva Convention and those protocols, as you see them, as an international lawyer?

RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Right. Well again, it’s to give heightened protection to civilians, and not only in international armed conflict, but also in non-international armed conflict. So the whole topic has expanded considerably, really under the guidance and the guardianship of the International Committee of the Red Cross. And I think it’s important to bear in mind that the 1949 Geneva Conventions is the first international instrument that’s been ratified by every single member of the United Nations, so that’s the law. It’s not only treaty law, but it’s become customary international law.

BILL MOYERS: Does it apply to a situation like Gaza?

RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Absolutely. And it applies, as we held in our report, it applies clearly to Israel as a state party to the Geneva Conventions, and it applies also to Hamas as a non-state party, under customary international law.